Shadow People - Mental Health, Hat Man and Heebie-Jeebies

Shadow Beings appear in folklore and cultural traditions across the world, with references stretching back as far as medieval times.

But what are they really? Are they inter-dimensional entities, supernatural spirits, or manifestations of the human psyche and subconscious fear?

In this episode of Xander & Stone, we explore the origins of Shadow Being encounters, the psychological and cultural explanations behind them, and the controversial modern claims surrounding their influence on human behaviour.

As always, we unpack the mystery from multiple angles—myth, belief, and science—while keeping the conversation open-ended.

Don’t forget to subscribe or follow the Xander & Stone Podcast, and share it with your tribe. Your support means everything, and we love hearing from our listeners.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:14

What a treat and a trick we have for you here today. If this is the first time that you're listening, we are Xandra and Stone, the science and supernatural podcast, covering everything from exorcisms and possessions to ghosts, hauntings, UFOs, crypto creatures, black-eyed kids, and everything in between. If it's out there and it's weird, we're gonna talk about it. So go and raid the Halloween candy stash and kick back because we're going to bring you an episode that you deserve. And if doing a podcast wasn't already delicious enough, I have the pleasure, nay, the honor, of being joined by the lead singer of the heavy metal bluegrass band Stone and the Sticks, and the first woman in history to circumnavigate the globe wearing nothing but Gautier Sequins Heels and a Tiara, the unconquerable Stone.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

That was beautiful. I I am only funny when I'm naked. You worked it in. Well done. And we have with us the circus ringmaster, Xander the Great. And let's add to that this week, Tech Wizard. We have a new website, and Xander did it all by himself.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

We do, we do.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

I can't take all of the credit because the Podpage website actually makes it really, really easy for podcasters to set up a webpage for their podcast. Um I'm gonna actually give a little bit of that credit to Brendan, who runs the PodPage website and highly recommend five-star recommend, five-star review. Any podcasters out there who are looking to set up a podcast webpage, that is the place to go. Podpage. It is fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

That's good to know. And and what I meant by himself is that I did not help at all. I personally did his.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Come on, come on. Well, you we've got to give you credit. We've got to give you credit for our branding color scheme because that is obviously very important. Um so we we did use your and you taught me that colours have numbers. Um, and I didn't know that. Um so there is, you know, it was it was a team effort. There's definitely a team effort involved in there.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

You want to live in a world where there are no numbers, I mean. I really, really do. I really do.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

But I just want to be like, you know, it's the shade of like that kind of like pigeon blue or you know, something what is up with it.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Yeah, what is what is up with the people who name colours anyway? Like who comes up with these names like canary yellow and smokers' teeth and whatever it is those color names are smokers' teeth. I can't take credit for that joke. That's an Ellen joke. That's an Ellen de generous joke.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

That was a good one. Look at you giving all the credit away.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

It's one of those days. I'm feeling very feeling very giving. If you've ever felt like you're being watched when you're alone at home or caught a glimpse of something moving in the shadows, a dark that's darker than the dark, then today's episode is for you. We're talking about shadow people. And Stone, I gotta admit that I cannot possibly imagine how the hell science is going to explain this one.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

You know, it's interesting. There are some science facts. A lot of them are overlapping per episode because we keep coming down to the same. And then what is science? Is it is it earth science like we had in school? Is it social sciences, psychology? So I have taken the liberty of merging the sciences on not just this episode, but several. So anything that has the word science in it, I'm grabbing for it. So just to be clear, some of the ways that science has explained shadow people, is that they are legitimate shadows. Um, they also attribute it to urban mythology, and because it's been gaining traction in the last 20 years, so you can blame it on Hollywood. It may be a figment of the imagination, schizophrenia, or borderline personality disorder. And one we discussed on our first episode, which was sleep paralysis. Sleep paralysis keeps coming back. So I'm really glad we covered that in episode one.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Yeah, in my research as well, there was one thing that kept coming up as well is the sleep paralysis aspect. Um, so I I didn't include it in part of my paranormal research into this into the the shadow people. There are a couple of mentions. Um, but yeah, it does seem to be a very dominant explanation for this idea of shadow people, is that it's it's part of the sleep paralysis phenomenon.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

Unless you're wide awake. Alternately, it may be your mind playing tricks on you. According to a new study, when a specific region of the brain called the TPJ is stimulated, it can create the illusion of a shadow person. And given that such experiences are often heightened in psychotic disorders such as schizophrenia and paranoia, and those who believe that they've been abducted by aliens, the results could lead to a better understanding of these neurological conditions. So, of course, neurological conditions always going to make the science list. Um, and so reminiscent and this reminiscent of the God helmet and the electromagnetic currents from our episode seven on ghosts, the findings were published in the September 21st issue of the journal Nature. Um, so there was a young woman, and she wasn't there for seeing shadow people, but while she was there, they were probing her brain to root out where her seizures came from. And then unexpectedly, uh, they did the procedure and it led to her having the experience of this creepy illusion of a person standing beside behind her where nobody was actually present. And the patient described the illusion of a person, and it wasn't like male or female, but it was just a shadow who didn't speak or move. And she said, He is behind me almost in my body, but I do not feel it. So when the patient sat and embraced her knees with her arms, she noted the man was now also sitting and clasping her in his arms, which she described as unpleasant. Um, when asked to read a card in her right hand, she noted the shadow tried to interfere, saying, He wants to take the card. He doesn't want me to read. And so they don't have uh this is the only instance. So they're gonna have to do larger studies, but it was specific, specifically from stimulating this part of the brain.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

That is wow, um, that blows my mind.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

Uh the the so it was from this like electrode stimulation of probes actually like physically inside her brain that was causing this this shadow person to manifest. And I think the the 5G conspiracy theorists are gonna go nut with nuts with this one because we hear a lot of reports, and like you said, it's it's a lot to do with the media um really, you know, highlighting the the phenomenon of shadow people recently. But we hear a lot of reports of people report uh of saying that they've had encounters of shadow people, and it can only make you wonder if it's got something to do with like maybe the electromagnetic field or like radio frequencies that are now flying around the earth because of things like cell phones and mobile phones and satellites, if maybe those, you know, maybe those those waves, those electronic waves, are entering our brains and causing this phenomenon that so many people are seeing shadow people now. That's that's really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

It's funny you say that. I didn't put it in here because I didn't have any evidence based uh, but I was thinking 5G. 5G 5G.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

We might have just we might have just opened up a whole new realm of conspiracy theory for those people. Something that they hadn't put. You heard it here first. You've heard it here first, folks. 5G causes shadow people.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

There go all the towers again. Oddly enough, it could also be caused by sound. And I hadn't heard this or read about this before. The ghost sound frequency or fear frequency is a wavelength that falls into the category of infrasound. Infrasound is a low frequency sound that the human ear cannot hear, but the mind and body can be affected by it.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 7:50

Have you heard of this?

SPEAKER_01 7:50

I have heard of infrasound. Um, I know that like it's a lot to do with bass sounds, like very it's it's a lower frequency, but not a higher frequency, if I'm I might be mistaken about that. Um there's frequencies that are above our our um human perception, so things like a dog whistle that only dogs can hear. Or you get all of those phone, like those apps on your phone these days that can actually tell and determine how old you are based on the frequency of sound that you can hear. Um, and then you get these bass frequencies, these lower frequencies. And I remember this is something when I was doing my film degree, um, and we were looking at at how sound is constructed and how you can use things like um uh, you know, like backtracks and and um sound soundtracks in film to actually invoke an emotion in people. And it's something that's included in a lot of horror movies these days, is that they actually put in resonance sounds that bring up a sensation of fear and terror inside you while you're sitting in the theater, and it's got very little to do with what's on the screen. It's actually got more to do with what's being pumped in through the Dolby surround sound.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

When I was in theater as well, they they we had to watch a horror film with sound, and then the second time we watched it without sound, and it becomes actually comical when you watch a horror film without sound. That's the that's the cheat to watching a horror film, is just not to turn the sound on. It too, I'd read that um men, when they get older, they stop hearing the high pitches and women stop hearing the low pitches. So it seems like you could test this theory just by age and seeing how many there's there's also a very good theory for why women hear high higher sounds.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Uh oh, sorry, why women hear lower sounds and men stop hearing higher sounds. And it's because um biologically you're more tuned to hearing the sound of a baby cry if you're female that you have to go and attend to the child. And it's the same thing, and it's not just in um, it's not just in humans, it's in a lot of different animal species as well. That if you if there's if there's a woman and a man sleeping in a room, if you don't want to wake up the woman in the room, you speak in a very low voice because her ears are not attuned to picking up that sound while she's asleep. Whereas with a man, you hide and you you make your voice a lot higher.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

Interesting. I thought it was because to preserve a relationship, like if you'd been married to the same person for 40 years, you just start tuning tuning them out.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Can't hear you anymore because it's too much.

SPEAKER_01 10:04

Sorry, but you're actually not on my audio wavelength. Yeah, you are not even on my audio wavelength right now. Cannot hear it.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

So I I I I feel like it's just trained tuning people out, but but your your sounds more scientific than mine, so we'll go with it since we're on the science segment. That said, supernatural scientists say it could be DC, I threw in supernatural science. Um it could be ghosts, astral bodies, time travelers, spirits from other dimensions, a tear in the veil between multiverses, aliens, and my little sister's favorite demons.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Of course. It's always going to be demons or aliens. That's what that's what they are. And I'm starting to think that the demons are aliens, or maybe that aliens are demons.

SPEAKER_02 10:47

Interchangeable. So there's so that is the science that I dug up for this one. There there wasn't much, but I but I found what I could.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

Yeah, look, I mean, that it's like I said, when I was researching into the paranormal aspect of this, um, it is very, you know, when you're doing your research, obviously I'm gonna stumble across all the scientific stuff and you know, curiosity, what it is, I'm gonna have a you know, a quick read. Um, and there's very, very little scientific explanation that can back this up. And it seems to really come down to more things like psychology, like you said. Um it could be evidence of schizophrenia. Yeah, something like the evidence of schizophrenia. Um, I was interested to hear the one that uh, you know, I hadn't I hadn't read um or hadn't seen anything to do with uh the stimulation of that part of the brain that might cause the person to see shadow people. Um so that was something new that I hadn't uh hadn't looked into before.

SPEAKER_02 11:32

Uh so yeah, very good and they did say they would have to obviously you can't just base it on one person, but uh they they had tested, they had gone into her history, she didn't have any evidence of psychosis or any of those things. So uh it it does seem like it obviously does something. And after we talked about the God helmet, as far as the electromagnetic giving you that sense of being watched as well. So it does seem like, according to science, that's stimulating the brain in those ways. Not that most of us are walking around with probes in our head, mind you, but for all we know with what you say.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

We don't know, we don't know that to be true. Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:06

In fact, strange bump on the back of my neck that I've been suspicious about.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Most of the majority, if the majority of the population of the world had a probe probe in the head, I'd be the one guy who doesn't because I I'm the one guy who'd be like, it's okay, you can put a probe in my head, it's fine.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

You always volunteer for trivial.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

Come on, man. We have a favor to ask of our listeners. If you are enjoying listening to the Xander and Stone podcast, do us a solid and share it with, well, share it with everybody. Tell your friends, tell your family, hell, even tell your frenemies about the Xander and Stone podcast. We don't mind if you share our links to our episodes on social media because after all, sharing is caring. And while you're at it, hit that subscribe or follow button on your podcast app and leave us a comment and a rating. Now, Stone, I know that you have had experiences of shadow people. So if you're okay with telling the listeners about that, um, would you mind going ahead and sharing some of your shadow people experiences?

SPEAKER_02 13:04

Well, now I think it's just 5G, so they're probably testing 5G in it.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

You might be maybe they're maybe the government's following you around because the government has got those secret um like uh sound wave weapons as well. So maybe you're being targeted by the government.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

I I think so. They they're like, how can we mess with her this week? Let's go.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

It's the scientologist.

SPEAKER_02 13:24

Nobody believes her if she has too many different stories. You know, this is the most logical. I had never thought of that. This is the most logical explanation. If she has too many experiences in too many different genres, then I'm discredited, right? So it's genius on their part.

SPEAKER_03 13:37

There we go.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

So um probab my son was eight or nine, I think nine. Not that it matters, but it it gives you a timeline. So uh I was I was seeing this little mouse run across the house, and I was so convinced about this mouse. And I I would move furniture. I was trying to find where this mouse was because I kept seeing scurrying across. And my boyfriend didn't believe me. So I put out two pieces of cheese and waited because I thought surely it'll take a bite and then I'll have evidence that there's a mouse in this house. And it just sounds like a bad children's book at this point. But after two days, uh, I noticed there were like little beads of condensation. I had cheese sweat on my and he he he and I agreed that it was probably time to move the cheese. That at this point, either it was a very full mouse or the mouse didn't exist. And so I had been talking to this uh shaman who is Native American, and I told him about the experience. And he said, Oh, he said, when you start seeing shadows, the other side's opening up to you, and often they do it in very small ways. And then as you start to accept it, the shadows get larger. And I kind of dismissed it. I thought it was you know it's a nice story, but sure. And so then the next apartment that my son and I moved to, I kept seeing what appeared to be a cat. So I had a mouse and a cat.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

It's just so not at all a cliche on their part. Shadow people are very cliche from a cat from a mouse to a cat. It's it sounds like what's that nursery rhyme? There was an old woman who swallowed a fly. And then she sends in something bigger and something bigger. My god, that nursery rhyme is about shadow people. That's what's happening. I have no idea. Yeah, that's what that's about.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

That one never made sense to me until now. It's all coming together. If only you know the shadow cat was in the same house as the shadow mouse, but they didn't line up. So it was two different locations. And so one day I was talking to my son, and uh I moved my head, I darted my head real quick, and he said, Oh, did you see the cat? And I said, Yeah, I saw the cat. Did you see the cat? Like I was just so it was so nice to have validation of the shadow because I hadn't obviously hadn't told him. And then we moved in uh to the next house. And in the next house, we saw um, I saw people going up and down the stairs. And because it was a fairly new relationship, I didn't want to bring it to his attention there. These are always difficult things to bring up. And I actually I don't tell most people until now. Now everyone's gonna know.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

But uh this is giving me a flashback also to our sleep paralysis episode where it was something that you don't bring up on a first date or put on your Tinder profile. Can you imagine what that has sleep paralysis, likes to grunt at night, see shadow people? Swipe left, swipe left.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

Yes, right, has alien experiences who still live in a haunted house. Sure. Yes, I'm gonna be a big hit on all dating sites if I if I go if I go full vulnerable. Um, so I kept seeing and I I was seeing one specific one who had a hat on. And I know when we discussed that earlier, you said that that was a common one. And it's interesting because these things happen to me, and then I guess I just started accepting it, and I really should research it more because after you said that, I feel like I did at the time, and maybe because there's more stories now, I just hadn't revisited it because now it's that that hat, you know, varying hats is everywhere. So I don't know how I how I'd miss that. But anyway, we I finally went to Sean and I said, Have you I said, I keep seeing something walking up and down the stairs. And after a few drinks, and I felt more like I could share. And he said, Me too. And then we both agreed about the hat and that even to the height and that he was sort of lanky and that it wasn't a bad energy. It wasn't something that either of us were concerned about. And we started, we nicknamed him the caretaker because we said, Oh, he's just taking care of the family, not a big deal. And so we went about our business, but then later it was sort of like a portal was opened and all kinds of different shadow activities started happening at the house. And we felt like it was uncomfortable, like it was not great energy, the other ones, not the caretaker. And uh, interestingly enough, one by one, the kids that ranged from ages eight to 17, uh, they started coming to us about seeing these shadows. And they wouldn't talk to each other about it. So we had to just go along and be like, oh, it's everything's fine, everything's okay, because we didn't want them freaking out. And at one point, we did uh we saged the entire house. We went through the inside and outside with the family and we said we're just blessing our new home because we're all living together and tried to make it about that, not about the shadow people. Um, and so we had a couple of nights where no kids were knocking on our door. But then after that, you know, of course it came back. And so we moved. And when we moved into the new house, um, his daughter, who was eight and didn't really have the words, I guess, to put it put it into words, but she said, I really like this new house. There's not so much. And she used our hands to make sort of a really frenzied hand motion. And she said, It's just, and she put her hands out like calm, like safe on a baseball like calm. And uh, and we knew exactly what she's talking about. The whole energy had shifted there.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

That is the and like you said, it sounds to me like that there was a portal there because often with these sorts of experiences, whether it be ghosts or shadow people, um, they're either attached to a specific place for whatever reason, whether it be that, you know, that's the location that they died, or like you say, that there's a portal there, or some sort of, you know, means of access from there, if they're interdimensional beings from their dimension to this dimension, or they're attached to a person. And the fact that you moved and they didn't follow, and your daughter, uh the daughter actually found felt that um that different energy suggests that there's there definitely was something that the shadow people were associated to that location, whether it be like you say, a portal or a veil or something along those lines.

SPEAKER_02 19:41

A lot of what I did I did actually ask one of the neighbors about in that area. I said, Is it because I I I started wanting to know the history of the house, you know, is did did seven people die in this house? Like what is happening here? And she said that there was construction because they had it was a you know, fairly newly built place. That's why it didn't make sense. And uh anytime they dig up the earth, that when you unearth something that it that it sort of uh all of a sudden the spirits come. So I I haven't heard that before or since, but I thought that kind of made sense that maybe there was some unearthing. But they liked our stairs. So maybe you're right. Maybe the second floor was where the multiverse is.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

You got some sort of like an airport, sort of like, you know, like an airport escalator side of situation from your second floor.

SPEAKER_02 20:26

Most of the sightings, even that the kids reported, most once in a while it would be in a room, but most of the sightings were on the stairs. And then the other one, which we talked about during the sleep paralysis, and I only had it happen one time when I was having sleep paralysis, was a shadowy figure, and all I could really make out was the uh finger pointing at me, like saying, You, and it was bum rushing me. And I was trying to pull myself out of the sleep paralysis. So, in that specific instance, I was asleep and I will credit sleep paralysis, but the other ones, all of us had our eyes wide open, and and none of the kids were talking to each other. We didn't confirm anything, so the stories shouldn't have continued, but they did, and we saw them too.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

So and was there a specific time and I mean, did you see them mostly at night when it was already dark? Did you see them throughout the day, daylight?

SPEAKER_02 21:10

Broad daylight, really broad daylight. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't like, oh, well, you had four floor lamps and maybe just certain shadows we're casting, or I mean, any time of day you could see this, these shots, and the only one I could make out that I would have said was a man was the one with the hat that was thin. The rest of them is almost uh it was more wispy. Okay. But that one was super defined, that specific one. And again, that one I didn't get any sort of and and neither did Sean. I didn't get any that's why we called him the caretaker. And that was the first one, and and we felt comfortable with that one. But then maybe we shouldn't have felt so comfortable because maybe it was just permission for everyone. Well, everyone else can use our stairs since you're okay with the caretaker being here. Because yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

He was on some kind of a recon mission and went back and told him, like, okay, this place is fine. They're okay with us being here. Don't totally cool. Just um make sure you make sure you don't run on the stairs. Um Interesting that you say that you saw you saw them during the daytime as well, because the the m most of the recordings or the the the encounters with shadow people seem to happen at nighttime. And again, that's where the skeptic part of my brain starts to kick in. That it's just that kind of trick and light of shadow, you know, light it light and shadow type of thing, tricking our mind. Um, and you know, again, it's the nighttime seems to bring out the worst of our fears, right? Like it's always like, you know, we're scared of places in the dark and we can't really see very well, so we're worried about things lurking in the corner. And I think that it's just a natural instinct that we have for our species to survive, is that if you can't see, there might be a threat there. So, you know, be wary of this place. It it brings up kind of our fear and adrenaline in our body, um, the same as it would for any creature at nighttime that doesn't see so well in the dark. Um, but the fact that you saw them during the daytime kind of adds a little bit, another layer to that story. And there's a lot of other things that you said that I mean, if I had a checklist here of all the different um, you know, aspects or the different things that people have encountered uh with shadow people, yours checks off, I would say, a good long, long part of that list. Um the the fact that it was a man that's wearing a hat and you describe him as lanky or slender is a very is is very commonly reported. The fact that you know you had spoken to a Native American Indian, it's something that features in the Native American uh culture and folklore a lot. You know, there's a lot of different aspects here that that kind of check off with your story versus what other people have experienced as well. And that's just Paralore. Parallel, paralore. Um, but that that that is just the thing that shadow people and shadow beings are a pretty common feature in folklore and mythology worldwide. And a lot of the paranormal research and scientific research has focused on these kind of ominous beings. And they've entered the public imagination, like you said, and are frequently featured in things like pop culture across various media platforms, uh, you know, TV shows like The Dead Files and Haunted America and Extreme Hauntings. Um, and Hollywood has made them very famous with loads of movies, and they've even been given immortality in things like novels.

SPEAKER_02 24:03

You know, when it happened though, because it was several years ago, I because we were working on screenplays and scripts and stuff, I I do remember even looking it up because I said, why hasn't somebody done a movie about this? So I do think, given that I looked it up at the time, and I don't know how much research I did, but at the time I couldn't find anything. So maybe it does seem like there's been a push now because when I re of course researching for the show, it just feels like the stories are everywhere. But at the time, I was just floored that this hadn't been made into a movie. And I don't know if you're aware of this, but somebody had suggested to us, and I'm not sure it was an Asian culture story, and I'm not sure which part, but that um we could make a little house, like a replica of our own house, and that they do it to trap the spirits because the spirits don't know, they can't judge size and dimension. And so this little house, and there was a name for it, but I don't know what it is. But this little house replicated that, and so they could live in this little house within your house. Have you heard that before?

SPEAKER_01 25:01

I I've not read that, but that you you're reminding me of just like um TV shows like The Haunting of Blind Manor, where the girl's got a little doll house, and it's actually the doll house that communicates with her about where the ghost is. There's the um Stephen King's Rose Red, and there's a miniature version of the house in there as well. There's a lot of horror movies that feature miniature versions of the house, and they're generally like kept in an attic. Even um hereditary, the mother is uh she builds little um like sets and things. I would be very wary of doing that because those movies don't ever end well when there's a little house involved in the big house.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

I did these kind of things. I'd be very careful of doing the little house. I never watch these. Well, rarely, rarely do I watch these movies.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

I would be very careful of doing the little house thing because it's in an awful lot of horror movies.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

Yeah, I I don't recall. I remember there was a very specific name for the type of house. And it but the idea of it weirded me out because I thought I wouldn't be able to walk by the little house in my house. I just I would know it was in there. I almost felt a little bit more comfortable with them freely roaming than being in this little house that I'd have to walk by.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

This is where we keep our ghost. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

Right.

SPEAKER_02 26:07

This is like keeping a mouse in a trap. I want to walk by that every day.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

But the the thing seems to stay the same as that we don't really know exactly who or what these shadow beings are. And a lot of people have suggested that they're just manifestations of absolute pure evil, so basically demons. And like you said, that they're responsible for things like what we discussed in episode one, sleep paralysis. Um, and again, like you pointed out, a lot of people say that they might be interdimensional beings that step between our dimension and theirs. But the general idea of shadow people is that they are a malevolent, ghost-like presence that is often seen or more felt out the corner of your eye, or seen out the corner of your eye, or more felt, um, like you know, you feel like you're being watched. And they're for the most part described as a moving black figure with a humanoid shape. Um, and that these creatures, they they stalk us, they taunt us, they inhabit the dark places, they come out at night. And a lot of people describe them when they see them in the dark as being darker than the dark. So if you've got shadows in your room, something a lot denser and a lot more black than that shadow, um, a lot of people describe them as having an elusive physical appearance. Um, and they they do, there are those who think that it might be quite deliberate on their part, that they're manifesting either from a spirit realm or from another dimension, and they're imitating the form our form. Um otherwise they would just be something that we don't recognize or just a black mass. And this is the form that they have deliberately decided to to take when they're on our dimension. And you know, it also this idea of them being in black and with a hat, are they associated to the men in black who are also these like unusual, you know, guys wearing again, just that typical uniform of the the hat and not really having, you know, it it's just an interesting, like there's an interesting theme with these paranormal beings and entities that they seem to dress like a 1950s mobster for some reason. Why is it always 1950s? See?

SPEAKER_02 28:01

Again, back to be careful what you wear.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:05

You never know if you're gonna get stuck in it.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Um, but also, you know, it's all these descriptions, they're they're very reminiscent of something like the boogeyman. You know, that guy that comes in or that entity that terrorizes children in the night when the lights go out. It only brings up the question: could it be that children are more psychically open and susceptible to seeing shadow beings? Is that why so many children are so scared of the dark and report this monster under their bed or in their closet? Is it a shadow being? Is it the boogeyman?

SPEAKER_02 28:31

Right. Well, and I I was reading too that a lot of people report that it's blacker than black, but um the red eyes. And I've never seen anything with the red eyes, but his son saw something standing in the corner when the door closed with the black shadow and the red eyes, but I I've never seen them.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

But yeah, it it just seems like such a terrifying choice to make. Like if you're gonna come and try and exist on another plane or another dimension, and maybe they're hoping that they would be accepted here, why don't you take on something that's a little bit more, you know, less less less striking fear into our hearts? Why don't you come through as like maybe not red eyes, as maybe like sparkling blue eyes or something like that? Absolutely fucking terrifying for the rest of us. But they also are, and and when you start looking at like the psychological um slash para para law, para-science explanation for shadow beings, um, and this is one that also lends to its uh itself to the idea of poltergeist, is that it might actually be something that's manifested out of our own anger, our own fear, our own stress. And a lot of reports seem to happen around times when people have a lot of turmoil in their lives or they're suffering from depression. So there is a theory that it might be like a psychic manifestation of like our inner turmoil and our inner troubles. Yeah, and they they've said the same thing about poltergeists as well. Um, and I don't look, I mean, I don't know how old that research is. I'm gonna guess it's from around the 60s and the 70s. I think it was the Enfield, Enfield poltergeist um researchers that first suggested it, that it was the teenage girls that were actually causing the poltergeist activity, that they were manifesting this psychic or this telekinetic energy that was causing objects to move around the house. And so there are those who say that that might be what shadow beings are, that when we have depression or we're in you know a heightened sense of being like anger or frustration or whatever, that it might manifest these shadow beings as like a physical manifestation of our own psychological issues. But they do come.

SPEAKER_02 30:29

If anyone could do it, teenage girls.

SPEAKER_01 30:31

That's what that's what they said. I wasn't gonna be the one to say it. I wasn't gonna be the one to say it because then I'll get called sexist.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Having taught teenage girls for many years, let me just assure you, if anyone could pull it, it gives the crucible, you know, a little bit more merit than it used to have for the Salem witchcraft trials.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

But this idea of shadow beings has existed for thousands and thousands of years, so it's not a new phenomenon in our you know modern age where places like you know, these the the travel channel with all their paranormal TV shows are are giving these things a name. Um the ancient Egyptians they called the shadow the kibbut, and they said that it was one of the seven souls that each of us possess. And when we die or when we move on, one of our souls stays behind and becomes a shadow person.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

Oh no, that's that's very interesting. I was no, I was just thinking, I wonder if um if if if they've been around that long, and if you know, several years ago I wasn't able to find much research. So what has changed? Is it just that we have all of these TV shows and now people feel more comfortable talking about it, or are the TV shows making people think they see it? I mean, which came first, the chicken and what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 31:37

Um well I I think you know, within this world of fast information that we have and being able to post things anonymously online, like you can go onto Reddit and post anonymously and nobody knows who you are. Maybe people feel a little bit more comfortable sharing their experiences. And you'll hear it's one of the things I mentioned later on that they think maybe a lot more, and again, it comes back to children. Children get past lives and you know, reincarnation memories. Um, and they say that children might be able to see these shadow people more openly than what than what adults are are able to. And they suggest that, you know, again, maybe it's because children are more less jaded about the world and more psychically intuned. It might be that at the time, as they get older, they don't want to be thought of as crazy or telling fantasy stories, or you don't want to be labeled as you know being out of your mind. So you or you just plain don't want to believe it for yourself. You don't want to believe that you thought you saw something terrifying, and that's why people maybe didn't talk about it. Uh but yeah, I mean the idea it goes it goes very far back. Um, like I said, it goes to the ancient Egyptians and they called it kibut, and it was one of the seven souls that each person possesses, and even so far back as biblical times, um, where people would actually curse each other's shadows. So in the book, uh the book of Numbers, in verse 14.9, they say um their shadow is departed from them. And basically what they meant by that was that a person is so detestable or they will suffer such an undeniable doom and misfortune that even their shadow is like, I'm getting the fuck out of here. You know what I mean? So, like they don't want to be around for that. Um, and the the Roman or the Latin word for shadow or shade is umbra. So now the word umbrella makes a whole lot more sense. Um it was it was also the word used to describe the spirit or a ghost of an individual who went to the afterlife or the you know the underworld, and that was a place called the land of shades, uh and they went there when they died. And even the ancient Greeks, they would go to the temple of Zeus, uh Lysias, and they would offer up their own shadow as a sacrifice to Zeus. Um and Lysias is uh also the origin story of werewolves. So people back then in like the medieval times and the ancient Greek times, they believed that like a werewolf or a vampire is somebody who lacks a shadow or a reflection. And what they mean by that essentially was that that person lacks a soul. Um, so it was like they had made a pact with the devil. And this was also something that fed into medieval times when they were doing things like witch hunts and accusing people of witchcraft, is that they had said that the that somebody had sold their soul to the devil, they would no longer have a shadow. Um, so this idea that shadow people and souls and spirits are very, very connected over thousands and thousands of years, going back to the ancient Egyptians and the ancient Greeks and biblical times, is that your shadow is evidence of a soul. And if you didn't have a soul, you wouldn't cast a shadow.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

So that gives Peter Pan a whole new level.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 34:26

So he he lost his soul. She had to sew it back in. They never tell us the full children's stories. We're figuring it out though.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

And the more you start exploring those children's stories, the darker and darker and darker they become. In fact, like if you knew the the the real intention or the original stories behind a lot of the Grimms Brothers fairy tales, you would never tell those stories to children because they're absolutely fucking terrifying.

SPEAKER_02 34:48

Yeah. Well, yes, even if you tell them straightforward, a lot of them are incredibly terrifying. But without knowing the backstory, they're pretty pretty harsh.

SPEAKER_01 34:57

I know with um Red Riding Hood, so the the red cape that she wore was basically a symbol from her mother saying that she was a bit of a whore and a bit of a slapper. Um because yeah, red is I mean, you think of things like the scarlet letter, red was not a good colour for a woman to be associated with. Um if she had been pure, she would have been given a white cape, but she was given a red cape, and her mother let her walk through this the woods. Um, and the wolf apparently represents just a general predator. Um, so there's a lot of like really, really negative undercurrents to these stories. Yeah, there's a lot of negative undercurrents. But all this like superstition and the fear that like you know spread over the ages with um with the ancient like Greeks and the ancient Egyptians and especially during medieval times, it made people very aware of shadows and what like what their shadows were doing. So it was considered bad luck for your shadow to fall over a grave. It was considered bad luck for your shadow to fall over a fast-moving river because it was they were worried that it would carry your soul away. Um, it was bad luck for your your shade to be cast over the edge of a cliff. Um, so this and again, it just all comes down to the you know, risking your soul. So this idea of shadows and shadow beings has always been very closely linked to the idea of spirits and souls. So again, it's not just something that our modern media has highlighted and said, like, oh, these are ghosts, these are spirits, these are interdimensional beings. This is folklore that goes back thousands and thousands of years. And when I started to look at different cultures and sort of hone in more closely about their folklore and their mythology and their beliefs around shadow beings, it becomes very clear as well that these entities are common phenomenon just worldwide. And what's also very striking is that they have a lot of features and a lot of themes that seem to go from one culture to another. And it'll be, you know, there'll be a common thread between the mythology and the folklore behind shadow beings on completely different opposite sides of the globes where those cultures maybe never would have interacted with each other unless, of course, the ancient aliens came down and told them all about it. But that's another episode for another time.

SPEAKER_02 37:00

Dropping shadows from their UFOs.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

But it's weird. So, like, how how can so many cultures and so many different people from all over the globe be reporting something that is so similar? Um, it's just it's no, it's no coincidence. There's got to be some substance to that. And is that itself evidence that shadow beings are real? The fact that all these different cultures have mythology and folklore and superstitions around them, and that it's not just a product of our imagination or a product of a belief system, but it's actually a real separate entity to our own living souls.

SPEAKER_02 37:32

It's certainly making me feel much better about myself.

SPEAKER_01 37:34

Good.

SPEAKER_02 37:37

Like misery loves company, sort of crazy loves company, if you have more people validating it. So that's helpful.

SPEAKER_01 37:44

And maybe, look, maybe that's one of the things that modern media and information is allowing these things to become a normal part of conversation. Whereas in like older times, you know, this sort of this sort of a conversation would be poo-pooed, and you know, like the scientific community wouldn't dream of touching that. And you know, even further back, if you weren't talking about something that fits in with the Christian or the Catholic dogma, like you wouldn't be absolutely unheard of to talk about. Um demons. Yeah, demons. There we go, demons. But it's something where where there's a lot more exposure to a lot more people, and a lot more people are feeling more comfortable about talking about these things. Um and you you really only have to go into somewhere like Reddit or go and look online and have a Google, have a goo. Um have a goo and and just go and type in shadow people, and there are thousands and thousands of websites and Reddit threads and all sorts. In fact, I took one of them, um, and one of the cultures that I looked at is uh Japan and what Japan says about shadow people or shadow beings. And please bear in mind as well that when you go onto like a wiki page for Japanese mythology and gods and spirits and demons, there are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds, and they've all got names and they've all got very specific roles. Um but one of the Reddit stories that I I found online was by a user called um Kaicha, and they said that they were woken up by a shadow being in Japan. So I'm just gonna read the what their post said. So one of my friends is from Japan, and I was spending New Year with her and her family in the Tohoku area, which is in the northern part of Japan. The first time I stayed the night there, I was abruptly woken up by somebody shaking me. It didn't hurt, but right when I woke up, I saw a black figure over me grabbing both sides of my arms. At first I thought it was my friend who was sleeping right next to me, but she was there lying fast asleep. I continued to look at this black figure kneeling right above me, and then it suddenly put its completely black, featureless face up against mine. It then started moving slightly from side to side, like it was trying to figure out who I was. It then released me and faded away. I just lay there and pinched myself. I was awake, I wasn't dreaming. I don't know what I saw, but I didn't feel scared. The next day I was telling my friend what happened, and my friend's mom overheard me. My friend's mom then walked up to me crying, saying that her son had died before he was born. She said that she sees him too, and that she's watched her son, or the shadow being, grow bigger and bigger as the years went on. What a weird experience, but not a bad one. Isn't that interesting?

SPEAKER_02 40:08

It is interesting. The other thing though about the mom, if you know, what the shamanids said that she would see smaller than larger than larger, it kind of goes along with that thing, the more and more accepting.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

And you know, of course you're gonna be accepting if you think it's the spirit of your past of a child or your past of a baby. Um, but you know, again, it's one of those things and you always read about it when people talk about like doing Ouija boards and you get contacted by like a child-like spirit, or if you're doing a paranormal investigation and you hear it like a disembodied child's laugh, um, they warn you against those because they say that that's exactly what the demons want you to think. They want you to think it's a safe, you know, you think of a kid, you think uh children's children's spirits aren't gonna do anything, they just want to play with us. Um, but what they're actually doing is they're trying to trick you into engaging with them because it's actually something of far more evil than the spirit of a child. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:58

That's so creepy.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

But the the Japanese, like I said, they have a lot of folklore around these shadow beings. Um, and in Japanese folklore, the yokai are the class of supernatural monsters or apparitions that are said to be shadow beings. And the translation of the kanji or the translation of the Japanese characters means bewitching, attractive, calamity, and because it's two characters, the second one means specter and apparition, mystery or suspicious. And the characteristics of yokai are pretty diverse, actually. Um so they can range from being malevolent and mischievous and causing misfortune and harm all the way to the absolute opposite end of the spectrum where they the they bring good fortune to the person who encounters them. Um but along with manifesting in this humanoid shape, the yokai are said to be able to shape shift into animals, inanimate objects, or just be a shapeless mass with no real discernible shape. And again, this comes back to the story that you've told. Um, shadow people are said to be able to shape shift. So they come in the form of like a mouse or a cat or a fox or something like that. But in Japanese culture, they can take on anything in the natural environment. So they can look like a person, they can look like a tree, they could look like a whole host of animals, but they seem to prefer things like uh being a fox or a turtle. And then they say that they can even manifest as something as concrete as a building or a piece of furniture. Um, so diverse shape-shifting talents there.

SPEAKER_02 42:16

And they could become those are haunted bunk buds. There we go.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

They could come in, they could come in super useful. Like if you're one dinner chair short for your guest, you could be like, we need a shadow person who can manifest into just a matching set of garden furniture, please.

SPEAKER_04 42:30

Right.

SPEAKER_01 42:31

Um these yokai, they've been reported in Japan um and even in ancient China as far back as the first century. So they're definitely not a new concept to Asian cultures. And there is a book from um the first century in what is now China, and it's titled Shun Shu Juan, um, with the statement in this book that the Spectre or the Yokai was in the imperial court for a long time. And the king asked Tui, which is one of his subjects, for a reason, or one of his advisors, he asked him for a reason, and the the advisor's answer was that there was great anxiety in the court, and he recommended that they should just empty the entire imperial room so that the shadow being would leave. And you know, again, that ties into these shadow beings being psychic manifestations, because he said, like in the court, whatever it was that they were discussing that day inside the imperial court had brought on brought along a long a lot of anxiety from all of the subjects and the advisors and the the king himself, and that psychic energy, that anxiety was manifesting, the shadow being to be in the room. Um, so again, it just ties in nicely with that. And then if you go completely to the opposite side of the world and to the United States of America, and particularly look at uh a Native American tribe called the Choctaw. Um, I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that correctly. It's C H O C T A W. So I'm gonna say it is Choctaw. Um with you. The Choctaw, the Native American tribe from the southeastern United States. Um, they also have a lot of stories and folklore surrounding Shaw. shadow beings. And there's one in particular called Nalusa Cheetto. And it's got another name called Impa Shaloop. And this is a very big, tremendous black being, but it was said to be the soul eater. And if a Choctaw person allowed evil thoughts or depression to enter their mind, this Impa Shaloop would creep inside them and devour their soul.

SPEAKER_02 44:22

I I actually just saw an episode of the Magicians, which you know I've binged like mad, but that must be where they got that. Because there there's an entire episode about that about being the soul eater and that you couldn't be uh angry or depressed and targeting females though in this one. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

Again, it's not something that's only specific to the Native American cultures, while there are a lot of African cultures that talk about this soul eater creature as well and that it manifests as a dark shadow and that it gets inside you if you have depression or anxiety or if you carry around a lot of anger or if you bear a grudge. Basically any negative emotions that you carry around with you entices this thing to come and eat your soul. And many of the the Choctaw nation actually they they believe so much in this that they will not even say the name Impashaloop for fear of summoning the spirit. So you know that's something that goes back to like just did it very fearlessly.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

You are really saying it's a little bit if they're not going to say it, I'm not going to say it's just bleep out all of those parts in the in in the episode.

SPEAKER_01 45:25

Well if the beep comes along gets beep um but you know again it's they they won't say his name for fear of summoning him and that's something that ties in like with all the Harry Potter movies and and Voldemort he who shall not be named or Candyman. Or the candy man yeah um or Bloody Mary if you're looking in the mirror and you can't say that three times. But the the Choctaw people they believe that inside every human we have two souls. We have this uh one called the shilup which is our inside shadow or our ghost or our spirit and we have another one called the shilombish which is our outside shadow and the shilom the shelup the inside shadow is said to move onto the realm of the spirit after we die and it'll live there for all eternity. But the shilombish or our outside shadow that remains here on earth and it will wander around rest restlessly moaning um and it'll haunt and target its uh friends and family because it wants them to move on from the place where it died. So it's basically forsaking this place and it wants them to go away and find somewhere new to live. So you know that that's an interesting concept right there.

SPEAKER_02 46:27

It is an interesting concept.

SPEAKER_01 46:29

But again similar to the one in Japan um like the yokai this shallombish it can shape shift into different animal forms. And here's a common animal that it shares with the Japanese one is that it shapeshifts into a fox or into an owl. Now again a lot of interesting tieovers from different cultures the Chinese demons um are said to be able to shape shift into animals and the most popular one is the an is the shape of a fox. The Native American shilombish can shape shift into the shape of a fox. The Japanese one shapeshifts into the shape of a fox. So watch out for foxes could be a shadow person. But what this what the shillombish of the Native American culture does is that it will bark like a fox and then at night it will screech like an owl. And the idea is that it's supposed to cause confusion and fear in the living but the shillombish um if you hear the bark of the fox or the screech of an owl it's considered to be a very bad omen. And the Choctaw tribe they have a way to differentiate between whether or not you're hearing a shilambish or whether or not you're hearing one of the actual animals. And they say that when a fox barks or when an owl screeches another fox will bark or another owl will reply to that animal's you know cry. But when a shilambish does it no animal will respond.

SPEAKER_02 47:46

So if you hear an owl screeching at night and there isn't a screech following up probably a shadow person probably a demon probably it it's really exciting though that now we know how to answer the question what does the fox say? Apparently there are people that know that's good that's good information. And then another saved us all from that song.

SPEAKER_01 48:10

And another thing about these shillambish as well is that they seem to target children. So it's one of those things that you know we all regret getting older but if I'm over 35 and I'm not going to be stalked by a shadow being that's fine by me.

SPEAKER_02 48:23

So yeah it it's interesting in a lot of these stories that we've covered throughout our podcast so far that if you're um if you're sad or depressed or a child, they're always targeting sort of the more vulnerable and not going for the like you would think that there would be one of these creatures that would just come for the strongest like go ahead and take him down. But they it's always vulnerable.

SPEAKER_01 48:46

Trump I'm sorry what I am in America's interest but you know like you said it's interesting they go for people who are weak and vulnerable and um you know children obviously we consider to be weak and vulnerable but children also instinctually react to emotion um you know like when when a kid is not happy they're screaming and they're it's it's very apparent that they're not happy. So they're very emotive beings and somebody who's got depression or anxiety or fear is also really tapped into their emotions and you know maybe that's what's drawing in these shadow people. But there's there is you know a more recent report of this shadow person. And this one is really going to sort of drive the point home about depression and and a mental illness. And this one is called Walking Sam and he's from South Dakota in uh Pine Ridge. I don't know if you know where that is and this particular Native American community that lives in Pine Ridge in South Dakota on a reservation they've got a lot of issues that you know modern indigenous people tend to face but regrettably one of the biggest issues they have is group suicide of their young adults and children. And that is not something you often hear about. And these suicides in South Dakota have been attributed to a malicious shadow being called Walking Sam. And while his name sounds pretty harmless pretty much anything but harmless and Walking Sam is believed to be a very ancient shadow being associated with Native American folk folklore and from a set of shadow beings that they call the stick in the stick Indians. I almost said stick insects the stick Indians and a lot of children even today they hear legends you know like we hear about the boogeyman and be good if the boogeyman's going to come and get you or whatever it might be. The children of this Native American tribe they hear legends of the sinister entities um and it's said that these demonic presences still stalk the reservation and try to lure unsuspecting victims to doom even if they're in their childhood. And you'll know that you've heard one of these stick Indians because they whistle to you. So this walking sand guy whistles can you get any more fucking creepy red eyes black shadow figure wearing 1950s fedora and whistling come on guys anybody who says that they're not here for malicious purposes it's just plain fucking wrong because that's pretty much like that's pretty much all pretty creepy stuff. But they say that if you follow the whistling that you become hypnotized and you sort of become paralyzed or not so much paralyzed as um lose control of your own body and that you start to lose your mind a bit and go insane. And they also say that if you disrespect them that these entities hold a grudge against you and they will seek you out and act their vengeance upon you no matter what the cost. And again you know some of the tribes they fear these beings so much that they won't even speak of them. So the result of that is that the full legend of this Walking Sam and these stick Indians is not completely understood outside of the indigenous community. The array's talk about it amongst themselves as part of their folklore and traditional stories but they don't really let the information out. So we don't know terribly much but Walking Sam, one of these stick Indians he is said to be one of the most powerful ones it's more to do with how he goes about getting his victims and who his victims are so what he does is he seeks out victims again who are vulnerable so young adults and children and he starts to tell them or he starts to give them thoughts that they are not worthy of living and they start to feel a sense of death they start to hear voices in their head and basically they get this kind of internal thought that you don't deserve to be alive and he continues to do this and continues to do this until he manages to convince them to commit suicide. And it does seem that his favorite victims are young adults and children. And again it might be because they're particularly susceptible to these kinds of suggestions. The description of him is that he's said to be tall and wear a black hat and have a very thin body so he sounds an awful lot like your um what did you call him? Who we referred to as the caretaker the caretaker yeah the caretaker and there are a lot of reports of this guy called the hat man or he even kind of fits the description of that um that that creature called Slenderman or Slender Man but I've I've been told it's Slenderman. And he's he's been particularly active this walking sound he's been particularly active in the last decade according to these this Native American community. And then the last five to ten years there's been a significant increase in suicide attempts on this reservation. Luckily or I don't know if that's luckily but um only nine of the suicide attempts were successful. I'm not so sure if I should say luckily for that but only nine of all of these suicide attempts were successful. All of the victims were young and even as young as something like 12 years old and none of the victims of this group suicide were over 24. So it's a very specific demographic and it's a very young demographic.

SPEAKER_02 53:38

And the survivors uh they say they also attribute it to this walking Sam.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

They they don't they don't maybe specifically say that they've seen the shadow figure, but they've had all the reports of having these thoughts of feeling a sense of dread and evil and death around them of having these thoughts that I don't deserve to be alive. I shouldn't be alive I should kill myself. So like they they say that this is how Walking Sam targets and torments his victims. But they I didn't see anything that specifically had a uh a kid saying I saw the shadow man I saw walking Sam.

SPEAKER_02 54:11

I I was just wondering if it was coming from them or if it was from the elders who had this sense that they were being targeted.

SPEAKER_01 54:17

It seems to come from the elders um it's it does seem to come from the elders. And uh in December of 2015 103 suicide attempts were reported on this reservation by people between the age of 12 and 24 years old. And they do think that the number actually could be significantly higher. And there was a local who lived in the reservation that claimed there had been over 200 suicide attempts in only three months. And if you keep in mind that this is a population of 4000 people who live on the red reservation statistically that is a significant percentage of that community. It is you know and of course there's sorts of those sorts of issues and those sorts of losses or or you know suicide attempts within the youth would really weigh very heavily on the hearts and minds of the elders and the people in the tribe. And they say that the suicide attempts have persisted in the years since then and the concerning thing is that they're not individual acts um these are group attempts of suicide. And a lot of them they said started with very disturbing online posts and the parents and the elders say that it's very out of character for their child that they went from being a happy individual a normal child and just did a complete 180 and now has these very dark thoughts and you know posting things online about suicide and how to do how how to go about suicide. And the elders and the parents of the tribe they found Facebook groups where the youth on the reservations had been sharing all these different suicide techniques and talking about killing themselves together and almost like it was some sort of like an after school activity like there was the suicide club or something like that. And even so far as that there were children posting videos about how to tie a noose encouraging self-harm amongst their peers and even just simple messages like the words go do it. But you know it it also means that even if the youth in the community didn't actually try to commit suicide that they've still been exposed to the idea of it or they might even be having suicidal thoughts or they've been exposed to methods and techniques of suicide. So no matter which way you look at this it's it's very very concerning.

SPEAKER_02 56:22

I I know it's gonna sound insensitive but it I just wouldn't think you would need a lot of different techniques to kill yourself. Like that you're sharing these different techniques like it that that's bizarre to me.

SPEAKER_01 56:35

I have look I've I've I've had friends in the past who've said that they've committed or they've not they've committed suicide that they've considered considered committing suicide and from the conversations that I've had with them a a lot of people are worried about things like pain. No they don't want to it they don't want it to hurt they want it to be just something you know to be over to be over. So things like you know whether it's like cutting your wrists or shooting yourself or whatever it might be that they want they don't want any pain involved and I can only imagine that you these different techniques that they're exploring you know if if a kid is posting okay go and hang yourself and another kid is thinking okay well that's that sounds like it's gonna hurt they might go and research a way that isn't going to hurt like take a handful of sleeping pills or you know do these but either way you know exposing anyone at an influential age between you know the ages of 12 and 18 or 24 or whatever it might be, it's putting those ideas inside their head uh inside a mind that otherwise might never have thought about it. And of course and yeah I mean you know what teenagers are like like you know it's it's one of those things that's your it's one of those things that your mother always says to you like if all your friends go and jump off the bridge are you going to jump off the bridge? Well if all your friends on the reservation if all your friends on the reservation are committing suicide are you going to commit suicide? Like it's that like kind of you know where group mentality starts to take over um and they're at an age where their judgment can be very easily influenced and and clouded. Sure. There were even images on on uh shared on social media on Facebook of nooses hanging in a tree nooses multiple plural lots of nooses hanging in a tree in a very small community on the reservation that only had about a thousand uh a thousand people and the tribal police later said that they believed that all those nooses were left there as an encouraging invitation to individuals to go and hang themselves. So you know an urban legend like this is often quickly brushed off as childish or fantastical but not when it's part of your community not when it's happening in your community and the the elders and the adults in this community they were very willing to discuss this idea of walking Sam. They they believe that there is an entity responsible for this this happening in the community and responsible for the high suicide rate. And they even went so far as to discuss the presence of walking Sam at their tribal meetings and their community meetings and they they pretty much recognized and noted that people were being influenced by the shadow being and they started to warn the community not to walk in the streets alone at night to stay away from dark and shadowy places. And there was even one woman who contacted government officials and asked the government to intervene and help to deal with this walking Sam character and to get extra police patrols around the reservation so that they could look out for him. So whether he's real or not, you know many of the adults were something's happening. Something's happening something's going on and and many adults within the tribe were treating walking Sam as a genuine and severe issue that needed to be addressed. And you know again it comes back to this idea that it could be a personification of our own psychological things. So you know are the elders of the village not really helping out because they're not necessarily getting these kids the mental health and therapy and you know things like that that they need the medication that they need I I either way it has to be addressed.

SPEAKER_02 59:51

It doesn't really matter it just obviously something's happening and it must be addressed.

SPEAKER_01 59:56

Yeah. But again you know it's it's it checks a lot of the boxes of what people have been reporting as shadow beings. He's wearing a hat he's tall and he's slender and if they're seeing this type of a being outside of this kind of uh reservation community or this Native American community people like yourself are seeing it. Again does that kind of validate that walking Sam might actually be a real entity who is enticing young children to go and commit suicide um it's if if somebody like yourself is is seeing and reporting something that matches that description. And this hat man he is one of the most famous and documented shadow beings out there. And he was actually first introduced in 2001. I don't know if you came across this idea um when you or this this information when you were doing your research but the the subject of shadow people um was really highlighted in the media in 2001 and it was introduced via the mainstream media uh introduced to the mainstream media via uh Coast to Coast AM which is a very famous uh radio show and podcast um that focuses on things like the paranormal and UFOs and after this particular broadcast loads and loads of people started sending in drawings and renderings and sketches of the shadow beings that they had seen and shared stories about their own encounters with shadow people. No one really expected such a prolific number of people to have had these encounterings and sightings. It was an author by the name of Heidi Hollis and she wrote a book about shadow people in 2008 and she was the first person to essentially coin this phrase the hat man. So the idea of the hat man might have been around for a long time but he he only really got his name in 2008 and the shadow people only really came to mainstream media's attention in 2001. But the similarity of people's stories has given the creepy character a lot of popularity and a lot of you know basically a lot of credibility I would say and stories of the people who have shared their encounter with the hat man um they're like I said they're just absolutely all over the internet. There's even a website specifically dedicated to the hat man and people's stories and tales of the hat man. He can pretty much appear at any time of day um so not a huge surprise that you've seen him on your stairs and he can pretty much appear in any location but most people seem to report him in bedrooms and in basements. So you know two creepy places one is the basement nobody likes the basement the basement's a scary not a huge surprise that a lot of people report seeing a shadow creature down there. And then a lot of like you said a lot of people encounter the hat man um usually while they're either falling asleep or they've just woken up or they're already sleeping. So again it kind of makes sense that he would be in people's bedrooms as well. But you know again the common threads are that people report feeling a very dark energy coming from him. They know that he's evil or they get a sense that he's evil and that he wants to do something to them. He wants to harm them a lot of people said that they get the feeling that he is feeding off their fear and he's actually enjoying their fear and it's it's kind of he's he's taking their energy so a bit like he's something like an energy vampire. I mean you you said that you kind of had a a bit of a positive experience with it.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:56

We we had we had very fond feelings for him actually maybe he was the twin brother maybe keeping everything in the balance and we got the good version. Maybe I did not not the other ones that started coming were in in nondescript male or female I just assume they're all men but that's me. But there was no way to really this one specifically male uh yeah we didn't get that sense with this specific one so I'm going to bet it was the twin brother that was doing good not harm.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:26

But you do I mean you you also said that that you didn't get a bad vibe and you were kind of welcoming of him um and maybe maybe that's it again maybe it's a manifestation of the energy trickster maybe or maybe it's it's a manifestation of the energy that we're giving off you know if you're giving off a positive vibe maybe he's a positive vibe.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:42

If you're crapping yourself at him maybe he is you know feeding off that that fear so he's like a mirror energy except that wouldn't explain the other ones that definitely had a dark well maybe things things to get a little darker then hmm maybe you're onto something so maybe it's a mirror energy. That's a good point.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:59

And I what you said there just now as well is that you said it's always a hat man or it's always you we always assume the shadow beings to be male and that is actually that is something that's featured in research as well is that there have been very few if any reports of shadow beings coming in a female form. And there was one that I did read I remember reading and I might get the facts all wrong now but there was one Reddit's uh Reddit user who posted a story about seeing the hat man the male the male energy but had a what they felt was a young girl or a young female shadow person with them in the form of a child so like a small female kind of an energy. And you know again it's lulling you into that false sense of security like here is me the big ominous but don't worry I've got this cute little girl one with me so everything's gonna be okay. But there there aren't that many reports of like a female energy coming off these shadow people or that they appear in like a female form. But you know when it's a moving boy I thought I was just being sexist it does make you think that people who witness the hat man they already are in a state of like semi-fear or anger or anxiety. When you're going down into the basement and it's a dark and scary place you're already got your guard up so you're hyperaware looking for anything that's moving. So you know it it just might be this negative feeling that's either manifesting a hat man or that's causing your imagination to go haywire and thinking that you're seeing one. Again this brings me back to another thing that I read on on Reddit because you know the gospel according to Reddit if it's on Reddit it must be true. And it was a a a user her name was or their name was strangely dazed and they really highlighted the fact that the shadow people appeared during a time of great anxiety in their life and their story goes my now ex boyfriend always talked about these shadow people. He saw the top hat man or the hat man or the man in the Fedora. So he's been described as wearing many different things.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:02

I was gonna say mine didn't have a top hat.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:04

Double in Fedora. Makes you think he's like some sort of like a Broadway show shadow man.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:12

Mr. Peanut.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:14

But he said that um her boyfriend said that uh the hat man always came to warn him of awful things that were about to happen. So she of course thought that the boyfriend was a complete psycho and just dismissed it. But then two months later, she started to see the hat man next to their bed and he would lean over her. Basically, long story short, is that this girl's boyfriend ended up violently assaulting not just her, but several other girls as well. And she says that she read somewhere that this hat person might show up if you're in the presence of evil, or if you're in the presence of an evil person, or in a dangerous environment, an environment that has bad energy. Um and she said that she also said checkboxes mine.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:51

It does, right? Like it does. It does check.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:54

You felt that the space that you were living in had a bad energy. Again, check, hat man, check. Yeah, um and she said that she she saw a different type of shadow man or a different form of a shadow being in the middle of the road in um the car at night with with her boyfriend, and she explained um the appearance of this this hat man or this shadow being to her boyfriend, and he immediately explained that the man only this the shadow being only appears when death occurred. And ironically, it was the next day when she went to the doctor's office that she was informed that she had just miscarried her child the night before. Um so anytime she saw these shadow people, it was always either around a time when you know the boyfriend was being a dick and assaulting people and being violent, or you know, around death or something like that. So, you know, again, there seems to be a very strong link to our psychology and our psychic energy to shadow people. It just always seems to circle back to that. That people find that they see these beings when they're around bad energy or they have bad energy in themselves. Um you just don't seem to be able to get away from that.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:00

That does make sense.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:02

And there's also always the sense people say that they feel like they're being watched. And they say that the the feeling um is no different when the hat man or when you're in the presence of the hat man. And he he's he said that he can appear, you know, like I said, he can he can appear in different situations, he can appear to multiple people at the same time. So the same thing as your experience, he's not just appearing to one person who might then be called crazy, but he's actually appearing to lots and lots of different people, um, which kind of also validates it, right? Um does. And many witnesses claim you are validated. Um many witnesses claim that they they met the hat man when they were children and they just kept the stories to themselves for fear of being teased or for fear of being thought of as crazy, but a lot of them just simply didn't want to believe it was true as well. So, you know, there there are many theories around why these shadow people are here and why we see them. Um, you know, it it like you said, it might be an interdimensional being, he might only be partially visible because he's on a different vibration to what we you know are on this realm, and he can only manifest it, you know, to a certain amount. Um there is there is also a psychic medium um called Natalia Kuna, and this is a quote by her. Uh she says, Shadow people are conscious, intelligent, interdimensional beings that can shape shift into various forms and figurations and move back and forth between dimensions. No, so if anybody's gonna know about these things, it's gonna be a psychic medium, right? Of course. There are also people who say that maybe he's an astral projection, or the shadow people are astral projections of people who are alive now and that they're just astral traveling and we happen to catch a glimpse of them. Um so apparently we're all astral traveling in top hats these days, which I find that's fabulous. If I can't wear a top hat during my regular waking hours, at least I can do what do it when I'm astral traveling. Um, but like you, like you said as well, that the other theories are that the hat man is a time traveler or a ghost. And of course, the most logical explanation: an alien. Yes. There are also, you know, it I was what did you call your sh your shadow person, the the the guy with the hat again? What did you think? The caretaker. The caretaker. Um, there are people who also suggest that they might be watchers or guardians. And when you said the caretaker, I was like, wow, that's like really in line with the idea of them being watchers and guardians.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:15

Um and what's crazy is I told you that I researched at the time. I again, it was probably a cursory Google search at the time. And after we moved, I really didn't give it much thought. And then when we were talking about it a couple episodes again and you immediately recognized the hat person, I I had no idea this was a thing. I just knew what our experience was. So I started researching and I was like, I it feels like it's everywhere. Like, I don't know how I've missed it. I it's not not like something I obviously researched since then, but uh yeah, it's it's exciting to sort of feel validated by it on some level. Although, again, we didn't have that sense of of any sort of evil with that specific one, but then things shifted with the others.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:55

You know, and if if if it's something like, let's say, like mass hallucination, global mass hallucination, where people are are all hallucinating or imagining the same the same being, why are they all imagining him in very specific clothing? In a hat. Um fedora. Oh, if it's if it's like if we said like with the 5G conspiracy or like audio or or wavelengths, magnetic, you know, pulse wavelengths or whatever, again, why would that manifest as a hat? Why would he be wearing a hat? Why are all the physical displays?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:23

Why does he need a hat? What's this hat about?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:26

I'm telling you, the key, the answer is in the hat. If we can figure out why he's wearing the hat.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:30

Why the hat?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:31

And and and just any being traveling interdimensional, you know, why why bring a top hat? Why did you specifically choose that costume?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:40

Um You know, I think the hat for me, that's probably part of the sense of calm because it just felt like an older man presence and you know, like what your grandfather would wear. Like the one when I was having my um when I was having my sleep paralysis that bum rushed me, there was no hat. I feel like if he looked like the caretaker, I probably would be a little more calm. Yeah. He's much more creepy without the hat. So maybe, maybe that's the point of the hat is to lure you into a sense of, oh, it's just my grandpa or oh, it's just an old man. He's traveling through, not a big deal.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:14

But this this idea of them being watchers or guardians or caretakers, again, it just opens up so many more questions. And with as with anything in the paranormal, when you go looking for answers, all you end up with is more questions. So if there are watches, if there are guardians, what are they watching? Why are they here? What are they looking out for? Is there a reason why some people see them and other people don't see them? Do those people have more of a connection to the psychic realm, the spirit realm than other people do? Like there's just so are we just dealing with beings that have some sort of a voyeur fetish and they just want to come and watch us?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:44

They're just checking out. We were probably really we were probably a good TV show for them, if that's what it is. Very entertaining.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:54

But when when all these stories started coming out as well, it does seem that a lot of people had knowledge um or encounters with the the shadow beings and the hat man without ever having heard of the shadow being or the hat man before that. So they had no existing or prior knowledge, they'd never seen anything on TV before. Like me, like yourself, and they all report the same common characteristics. Um, and it was really only once they started looking for answers that they they started you know hearing these stories from other people. Um, but you know, of course, like you said, there is no method to test any of these ideas. So we either just have to believe that the hat man exists as a separate entity to us um or that it's just a psychological phenomenon or a psychic manifestation. Um so I'm I'm gonna ask you, what do you think? If if you were to say what a shadow person is, what do you believe them to be?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:45

I you know, because I had two different experiences, one where I felt like it was a very benevolent uh spirit spirit or or whatever it was versus the other one. You know, if it was just the caretaker, I would have bought into the whole there's a there's a rip in the veil and the the you know, another universe is is bleeding through. I would have bought into that. But the other whatever carried the really dark, crazy energy, and unless you know it's aligned in the other uh universe with New York City and there's just a lot of angry people at lunchtime, that's possible. But otherwise Yeah, I I really I d I know that I don't know. I I know what I felt, I know what the kids felt, I know what we saw, but I know that I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:32

It would be interesting to find out.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:34

That's I mean, it's the same when I think about it, you know. It's again, I want to believe that there are these entities visiting from other dimensions. Um but again, just for lack of evidence, you know. Okay, there is you know, I always talk about not having terribly many paranormal experiences. Um, and because I always tend to brush them off or explain them away. And in this apartment that I'm living in at the moment in China, um I was in the bathroom and I think I was shaving or brushing my teeth or just doing some mandane thing. And for a brief second, looking at my reflection, but just out of the corner of my eye, but in the reflection, but bear in mind it was it was what I the reflection that I was looking at.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:12

You're already explaining it away.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:14

I thought I thought that I saw like head and shoulders of a sh a shadow being in a humanoid shape pop up behind me and then pop down behind my shoulder again. So almost like somebody peeking up over your shoulder and then ducking down again. But you know, uh again, it was in a reflection. Um, so now we're saying that these shadow beings actually cast a reflection in a mirror in a surface. Um, and you know, when you're brushing your teeth or doing a shaving or whatever, you're kind of looking dead on into your own face, so you're not focused on your periphery so much. So it was like a movement, and you it couldn't have been the dog, it couldn't have been the cat because they are way above they're not tall enough. They're way behind yeah, way, way below my shoulder level. Um and but some some movement popped up and popped down, and I can tell you that much is that I'm sure that there was movement behind me, it popped up and popped down. Um, and you know, again, it's not something that freaks me out terribly much. Um and and even so much as I as I would talk to it. Um, if I get that creepy feeling when I'm I'm in my apartment by myself and I feel like I'm being watched or I feel like I'm not alone, I will vocally say, like, um, either you're not welcome here, please leave. Um, or I'll say, like, uh, you know, like I I'm going to bed now, you're not allowed to follow me into the room. Um, or just something along those lines. And that feeling immediately goes away, it immediately dissipates. And I wonder, is that a spirit entity going, Oh, okay, cool. Well, we'll see you tomorrow then. And, you know, have a good night. Yeah, or like, so sorry, so sorry, didn't mean to disturb, we'll leave you. Um, or is it just me kind of psychologically reassuring myself?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:43

Um, you know, that it if it works, it doesn't really matter.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:46

It doesn't really matter. Maybe that's why I'm not having paranormal encounters because I keep telling them all to fuck off.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:51

You know, please just leave.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:53

It does sound suspicious, they're like, yeah, he's not taking. And for us, we're like, oh, it's the caretaker. Please have our stairs. You can use whatever you like here. So yeah, it was an open invitation. So we didn't mean to everyone, but uh, he probably got the word out. I think you're right on that one.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:07

So, with with this like knowledge that we have now of shadow people and shadow beings, if you saw another one, what would you do? If you saw the half man again.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:15

I will tell you, we've talked about it enough today that I, you know, it's it's I don't know, it's a billion o'clock. It's 12-12 here.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:23

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:23

And I part way through when you were talking, I thought I am going to have a really hard time sleeping tonight. And this is the first episode that I even after the haunting one, where I felt like, huh, this might be a little bit more difficult tonight. So uh, you know, I'm more I'm very uh big on energy. And so if it's a negative energy, then then when I felt those negative presences before, like at the other house, uh, I probably should have done what you did, but I would uh sometimes I would light incense, light candle, do a meditation, but most often I would turn on the TV, turn on music, something to sort of, yeah, just sort of numb numb me out so that I I wasn't paying attention to it. So likely that's what I would do.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:09

But and I think, you know, like something like vocally saying, like, you are not welcome here, and then feeling a sense like, okay, well, now it's gone. That feeling has gone away. And again, I don't know if it's just me reassuring myself and saying, Okay, you've done what you can do, or if it's actually a presence leaving. Um, but all of these reportings and encounters of shadow beings, no one's ever been physically harmed by one that I have read of. Anybody is welcome to call in or email us and tell us that they were physically attacked by a shadow person. Um, I know that they cause psychological issues and they can get inside of our. I was gonna say they can get inside and call it.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:42

It's causing group suicide.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:44

That's pretty that's causing us to do harm to ourselves. They're not able to actually physically harm us.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:50

So I just I just have to shout at them and say, You're not welcome here, and then I can get some rest tonight. That's good to know. It'll be like you.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:57

That's a good bedtime story.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:59

So you have daylight there. I'm watching sun stream through yours, and I'm and I was thinking, this has to be easier for him to do this podcast during the day. He doesn't have to go to sleep afterwards.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:10

But okay, so I'm I'm gonna ask you while we were doing this recording today, were you keeping an an eye on the background to see if you could see any shadows or anything moving behind me?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:18

No, I I've been overly focused with your poster, I want to believe, because I keep wanting to mark out the want to.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:25

Okay, so I just I believe.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:27

Well, but I did but I do see the sunlight streaming through. I wasn't looking for shadows.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:31

I think uh well, there is there is like a slightly humanoid humanoid shadow behind you, but I figured out that it's actually your shadow. Um so don't worry.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:41

Why would you do that to you? Did you see my face? I did. You saw my face. Like, why would you say that? It's in the fold of your curtains, but what I figured out is that it's you while we were talking, while you were doing your bit, I was like, God, should I tell her that there's a shadow behind her? Should I should I not?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:54

Um, but then I figured out, I figured out that it's your shadow that's moving. Um, because every time you moved, it moved.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:00

Um of course, tell me. Why would you you don't lead out with, oh, if you saw a shadow, what would you do? You start with, hey, there's a shadow. Don't ask me my response, God. Like, yeah, that's definitely my shadow. Don't freak me out.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:14

So, of course, we would like to hear from the listeners, right? If anybody's got a person, uh, a story of encountering.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:20

I'm still panicking.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:22

There's no shadow behind you. It is your shadow. All right, then. And it's obviously now we have we have confirmation of your soul. You you definitely have a soul, you have a shadow. I do. Um, so there's no doubt about that. Um, but of course, we want to hear from the listeners. We want to know if they've had any encounters with the shadow people or the hat man. Um, and now that we've got our fancy new website set up, you can actually leave us a voice note on the website. So if you go to https, semicolon slash slash xspodcast.com, or just follow the link in the show notes. And you see on the page in the bottom corner there will be a little blue icon of a microphone. If you click that little blue icon, it will allow you to send us a voice note. So go ahead and send us your encounters and your stories of seeing shadow people or hat man or any of those weird crazy aliens or bigfoot. Pretty much anything, anything, anything at all. Sirens. Spooky, weird, funny, sad, silly, we don't mind. We want to hear from the listeners. Um yeah, so exciting times, exciting times.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:22

It is.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:24

Exciting. I'm my heart's pumping really fast.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:27

For all the wrong reasons. Um so maybe maybe we can take your mind off it. Why don't you give a shout out to some listeners for us?

SPEAKER_02 1:21:35

Okay. I thank you. My shout-outs are going to The Shadow Man behind me. The shadow man behind me. See why? Why? This is it's good that it's so close to Halloween. You know I'm going to be texting you all night. Still can't sleep. Still can't sleep. Thank you for putting that in my head. It is psychosis, but you probably started it. Um, my shout-outs are going to uh a science teacher I work with named Brianna Kern in Phoenix, Arizona, Nancy Webb in Los Angeles, who really honestly makes me think that uh being a vegetarian or vegan may be the way to go. And believe it or not, and Theodora Malapanas in Canada.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:17

Why is vegetarian or vegan the way the way to go? What's that about?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:21

This woman, you would, she looks 20 years younger than her age, I promise you. It's fascinating. And so that I I know it should be for a thousand other reasons, but honestly, just looking at her skin, I'm like, oh, why don't you be a vegetarian?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:35

I immediately adore her and hate her at the same time for all for the same reasons.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:40

She was a Playboy bunny back in the day, don't you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:43

Come on.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:43

Yeah, and she still she can still get into the same uh outfit.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:47

She pisses me off. I haven't even met her and she already irritates me. Uh for for all the best reasons because she looks amazing and I don't. And I I can't get into my play bunny costume anymore. It just doesn't fit.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:58

Um Well, I I still think that you're uh you're gorgeous. You're gorgeous anyway. I've never seen you in the play movement.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:07

Yeah, you've never even seen me with my bunny ears on. Uh my shout-outs this week are going to Juanita Slabert in the UK, Shauna of the Sideshow Podcast, who we mentioned last week. Mel, the listener that called in with her uh with her story. Her partner's name is Shauna, and she's been listening to our podcast as well. Um Hey Shauna of the Sideshow Podcast, to Jenny and Chris of T Engine in China, to Brendan at Podpage, because uh Podpage is just so awesome, and this guy has made such an awesome product that he deserves the shout out. And also to the producer at the Jim Harold Spooky Studios, Maddie, um, who I've been interacting with on email as well recently, and she's been great fun. Um, she did one of those awkward, uh, those terrible faux pas with auto like emailing templates, and she forgot to enter my name. So I received an email that says, Hey, enter name here, and then the content, and then the content of the email. So now every time we email back and forth, that's what my name is from now on. Hey, name here. Yeah. Nice. Um, so just one more time, we definitely want to hear uh our listeners' spooky stories. So follow the link to our podcast website and leave us a voice note, or you can send us an email. And don't forget to subscribe and follow and share our podcast. Our new email address is info at excesspodcast.com, and on Instagram we are Xanderstone Podcast, and on Twitter we are Xanderstone10. Thank you for creeping around in the shadows with us today.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:29

So from me, Xander and me Stone, remember to live life in Excession.